Tired of turning the other cheek

Rhii wrote recently that she was looking at joining a raiding guild that has lately lost four officers and she is understandably concerned that perhaps joining that particular guild isn’t the right move. I don’t blame her… even though that guild is my own.

At the same time, there is information that has been put forth in bits and pieces that, once it makes a cohesive whole, might perhaps explain why four officers have been lost and why, as GM, I am not in the least concerned that this will have very much of an impact on my guild. We are far from folding, or at least, I am far from giving up on the notion of leading a successful 10 man raiding guild, although I do admit it might be under a different tag.

Before I get into details, I have been considering that all of these officers who left waited until after a significant event occurred. In the interests of being open and honest about my dealings with these poor and beleaguered souls, I am going to tell you what this event was. It’s pretty heinous so hold tight:

I gave them all specific jobs with measurable goals.

I know. I KNOW. It’s a wonder I can sleep at night. Asking officers to do something other than sit around pretending to be important? The. Horror.

Okay, now it’s really time to hold tight because this is a long one and I’m not interested in pulling any punches. Names will be named. Fingers will be pointed. Drama has occurred and may ensue again.

Recent History

The first officer I lost, I lost because I adhered to the rules that were set in place. Holly essentially rage quit, leaving with a message of (and I quote) “fuck you very much” because I didn’t make special allowances for her husband. She was the one asking for them and he never gave any indication that he even wanted them, but talk about an attempt at abusing one’s position.

The second officer I lost, I never believed had true loyalty to anyone or anything other than himself. He left over authenticators, or at least that’s the reason I was given.

The latest officers I’ve lost are a married couple. Of everyone that left, this was perhaps the one I didn’t see coming. At brought Nox into the guild and the game years ago and Nox eventually brought in Jinx.

At and I – and this guild – have been there pretty much every step of the way with both of them. With Nox, we became raiders together, learning how to work as a raiding team. With Jinx, well, she is a Wrath baby and still to this day has no idea what raiding used to be like. Nor yet heroics that are actually difficult. It took a few years, but we finally had her pulling her own weight in a raid and not sucking up the bottom of the DPS charts although she was still the chief culprit of standing in the bad. Only as we worked on Arthas did she actually come into her own.

Then Holly quit in a fit of rage and instead of being able to shrug it off and move on, Jinx has been wallowing in how hard it is when friends leave.* We talked about it and I said at one point or another that after several months of being used as a target by Holly and three years of putting up with some downright shitty tanking (with sides of piss-poor heals and huntardy dps from her SO) I wasn’t all that sad to see her go. Quite the opposite, I was relieved. They couldn’t hold us back any more even as they deluded themselves that they were carrying us through content.

Of course, if you’re a GM you don’t have the right to say what you really think without dealing with the repercussions. In this case, the repercussions are that Jinx, all the while claiming to be an officer and acting in the best interests of the guild, waited until I would be out of the game for some time and then went on her rounds, talking shit to a list of undisclosed persons. She outright told me this herself, standing right in front of me at my desk.

We had words. Her side of which was essentially: “You’re a horrible person because you had this core designation in place and it’s ruined the guild and everyone else thinks so. PS, we all hate Zel.”

My side of the conversation went something like: “I just want to raid seriously and I have done everything I can to make sure that happens in a casual guild. PS, you don’t beat end game content by sitting around talking about sunshine and roses. You do it by being focused and working at it.”

I wish I had added, “Also, how dare you of all people complain about the core when firstly, you were only in it because Nox refused to play without you and secondly, it was that and not your ‘skill’ that kept you in our raids all the way to the end?”

*I admit I used to be devastated when people gquit and this was well before we ever tried our hand at raiding. I have since realized that I barely remember who most of the people who left were and none of them were worth the devastation I felt at the time. Playing this game and dealing with a community of people who are largely out for themselves has made me grow more immune to these events. I expect people to act in their own best interests and I am not going to waste a lot of pointless emotion on anyone who has stepped outside of my sphere.

The core is the debbil!

Now, the core deserves its own bit of explanation. In late spring, a whole lot of people were talking about coming back to the game and wanting to raid. Meanwhile, several people had been around all along and had been working on content. The idea of having to stop, go back, gear up and juggle several more people into a raiding rotation was not one I was particularly down for. We had only recently managed to recover a steady forward motion and ICC awaited.

If these people did come back and were willing to put in some effort towards getting themselves ready, I would have loved to have them. But I knew their behavior from before and if we didn’t have a clear rule in place about raid spots, they would assume that because they were there and wanted to go they would automatically be given spots. They weren’t shy about pitching fits if they didn’t get their way, so clearly something was needed.

So the core group designation was formed, with the full agreement of all the officers. Basically it was the people who had never wandered off for months at a time would have priority for spots over people just coming back. There were only six or seven “core” people so there was space for others to have their turns.

A raider or two ended up wandering off to a different guild and it was at this time that Zel and Gnoble decided to come and check us out. Being a healer and us being short on heals, Zel never had to sit out. Gnoble did his share of sitting on the sidelines and there were no complaints from them. They knew what they were getting into. But as time went on, Zel and Gnoble, in signing up and then showing up without fail, became dependable and I was soon confirming both of them for every raid. Other raiders weren’t signing up often, but I made every attempt to bring them in where and when I could.

Towards the end of the expansion, I was having more and more difficulty in balancing raid teams within the confines of the core group. There had been enough complaints about the core group from most quarters that I assumed no one would object to it going away. It had done what I needed it to do, including keeping summer raiding going fairly strong since people were motivated to come so they could keep their core spots. I had already mentioned getting rid of the core with the new xpac coming and no objections were raised at that time.

In the last few weeks of Wrath, I announced that I was going to abolish the core to give a little more flexibility to my own ability to create balanced raid teams. As soon as I did that, the officers mostly freaked out because “OMG MY SPOT YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE ME NOT HAVE MY SPOT AND WE NEEEED THE COOOOORE OR I WON’T BE ABLE TO GOOOOO BECAUSE YOU AREN’T GOING TO BRING NOOOOBS.”

I thought that was particularly telling, that perhaps the loudest of these shouters knew they weren’t raiding to their full potential and knew that the getting rid of their guaranteed spot might mean that they would have to stop being so lazy.

Nevertheless, I abolished the core designation and we killed the Lich King a whole two times and Cataclysm arrived, both in game and in my real life. Announcements about not having the core in place moving forward were made and I thought that things would sail smoothly enough that I could deal with the details of packing and moving. Silly me.

Pro Tip to Jinx since I know you will read this: Don’t tell someone you “have your officer hat on” and then share that you are going around stirring up shit over something that doesn’t even fucking exist any more. It makes you look really stupid.

Fallout (wherein I embrace sarcasm)

So far, there has not been much fallout, though I suspect a few more people might leave (especially if and when they read this post and realize that they believe Holly’s and Jinx’s version of events more than mine). Jinx is attempting to poach while saying “But I am not poaching! I am just providing a haven for the refuges!”

Because, you know, with the way I have tolerated and tried to work around all this selfish and lazy behavior, I am clearly a tyrant bent on making those people who are, uh, trapped in my guild suffer. Someone get the WoW version of the UN after me! Free the refugees from my borders! They can’t leave on their own if they are unhappy with something, nor can they bring their concerns to leadership. It’s unpossible, I tell you.

What now?

I learn a little bit more every day about how far my former officers have undermined things in the guild. I am torn right now between wanting to tear everything down and start over (now that I have only some more sensible thinking types remaining in their leadership positions) or just torching it all, knowing that those who understand what I am after in game and who have similar goals will more than likely follow me.


Tired of turning the other cheek — 38 Comments

    • I’m sure she spoke for everyone on the server, too. I mean, that’s how spokespersons for mysterious groups of ‘others’ usually roll!

  1. Heh. @Zel, you need some Alleria refugee reenforcements over there? Might shake someone loose to make room for a Worgen over here :)

    @Alas – maybe I’m thick but I didn’t actually see the part about the jobs being handed out, and /gquits ensuing – or was that woven throughout and I just missed it?

    But, OMG. What is the world coming to. The GM thinks she runs the guild? SCANDAL, I say!

    Well, take consolation in that it could be a lot worse. You did, after all, make it to Arthas before things melted. We didn’t.

    • Oh, the bit about jobs was a bit of extra sarcasm there at the front. I enjoy sarcasm.

      Please don’t tell the WoW-cops on me that I am trying to run my own guild!!

  2. When I took over the guild on our old server the first thing I did was tell officers that they had to assume some area of responsibility. Why people think that officers should do nothing boggles my mind. It doesn’t have to be much, it can be something simple like guild banker or historian if you want, just something that needs to get done and we can clearly say “X is responsible for Y”. Being an officer isn’t a perk, or something special, it is a duty one should take upon themselves to better the group. People should respond to a call for service with generosity and enthusiasm for the greater group, not for what they can get out of it.

    I have other thoughts on the matters you talk about, but they aren’t really worth the time to spell them out.

    Keep the vision of where you want to go and where the guild should be, and it will fall in place.

  3. You poor girl, you have my upmost symapthies. Guild leading can be an exception test of patience and perseverance, I once led a social guild back in TBC and despite not raiding and despite my adoration for everyone in it (most of whom I still play with), certain guildies could make it extremely hardwork

    Guildies: Why isn’t Runs online?
    Mrs Runz: He went out drinking with a friend
    Guildies: any chance you could ring him and ask him to come online
    Mrs Runz: umm….. no…… no I couldn’t

    Anyhoo, me going of on a tangent again. I’d advocate not ‘burning’ the guild, you will achieve nothing. Instead you have now identified a problem and your role as management, as it were, is to rectify the problem in order to achieve your desired end state.

    Might I suggest the following (and I apologise if I am teaching you to suck eggs here but it doesn’t look too much like you’re doing this, it seems like you’re reacting to events rather than establishing policies beforehand – just the way I read it).

    1) There are no ‘reserved raid spots’ – who gets in is determined by who is reliable, geared properly, on time, ARE OF THE CLASS REQUIRED, and knows tactics.
    2) You will be geared properly – end of story
    3) If you turn up late without letting the raid know why (and it better be a good reason) you will not be on the raid.
    4) Have a ‘trial’ rank – see how the new person goes, their attitude and timeliness. If there are probs with DPS or HPS or holding threat, guide them to make them better. If they do not take your advice and fail to improve they have failed their trial.
    5) If guildies are going to be taking a break from the game let the guild know, if it’s for a week then no probs, if it’s for 6 months then you’re going to have to do trial again. If you don’t let anyone know you’re taken up a 16 year scientific expedition in the Antartic then you will get /gkick’ed.
    6) Mandate how many raids a week you expect your raiders to turn up to, this can be as many or as few as you like but it lets everyone know what is expected of them.
    7) Just because you have a progression group, doesn’t mean you can’t have the socials – create a rank for them. Socials like to raid too but they shouldn’t hinder the progression team. Allow for social & alt raid nights so everyone can join the fun (also useful for trials).

    If guildies are keen on progression they should seriously have no problem with this as most raiding guilds (even casuals) have similar rules. If the players are all casual then they shouldn’t be too humped on progression – just try to ensure you do have the ‘fun raid night’ to allow those not regularly on the raid team at least a crack at the whip to learn tactics andget gear.

    Thems my ideas anyhow, feel free to use or mock at your leisure, hope it helps XD


    • I suppose it might not have been evident from this post, but most of what you suggest are things that I have had in place for quite some time. I will admit that I do tend to be somewhat reactionary from time to time, but I do try hard to be aware of that and not go down that path because it never really ends well.

      That being said, I do thank you most heartily for the advice and the general sympathy! Also, ooohhh, a mage blog? /subscribe!

      • hehe I ended up looking back through your older posts on this topic and yeah most of what I said you’ve clearly had established for quite some time now.

        I really do wish you the best of luck and honestly sometimes things like this happening, although a headache, are for the best. You will have gotten rid of a someone who appears to have turned into a drama queen (although lost a friend as well and that just really sucks – lament the loss of the friend. It appears you lost her, through no fault of your own, far before that).

        oh and TYVM for the subscribe :P

        Honestly, I’m not great at the game between horrendous lag issues and constantly being distracted by other things going on around irl lol. But by god, my theories are normally bang on the money – if only I could put them into practice rofl. Have a Happy New Year’s XD

        • A Happy New Year to you as well!

          I am sure this turn of events will bring some good. This is hardly the first time I’ve been through the wringer with people getting upset and leaving. Like I said, I have come to expect it. And I do think it will be best for the guild in the long run, to have people who seem to view raiding as a chore, not raiding. The more I look back on what has been said by these people, it seems that they felt tied to the game and forced into raiding. Why this is blamed on me, I am not sure. I certainly took weekends off myself and prioritized my real life as needed. But that’s the way of resentments – they don’t have to make sense.

          I look forward to having some time to read up on your mage theories. So far (not that I’ve had much time in Cata), my performance has seemed lacking and I haven’t had the time or inclination to try to wade through EJ.

  4. I agree with some of the things you said, but disagree with some of the others. All in all though, it is good to get things off your chest, even if some people may be hurt. Honest feeling are honest, if not always nice.

    Even though I was not in leadership at the time the core was built, I initially saw the value in it. As time went on, however, I personally started to dislike the idea (no one likes to sit out). When I was promoted to a leadership position, I started to see some of the negative aspects of it. Most notably, that it bred resentment, both from the people who were excluded and from you, who had a limited toolbox to draw from. That was only amplified by the months-long wipefest that was LK.

    Finally, we tried to be more inclusive of the people outside the core by adding a second ICC run. Unfortunately, the officers (including those that remain and those that left) did not have the time or energy to raid a fourth night a week.

    • Always the diplomat! It was quite refreshing to say what I think for once, though I don’t think I can or will make it a habit.

      Ah well. Things happened the way they happened and there is certainly no pleasing everyone. At this point, it is all very much one day at a time for me and we’ll see who else wants to make a big deal over something that doesn’t exist.

  5. Wow…talk about mental health issues. You actually sound like wow is something other than a stupid video game. Hello? real life? Do all your friends live in this game or what? You know they have support groups for people like you.

    Did you pay the 15 bucks a month for these people to play the game? Or did they pay out of pocket? What a mental case you must be.

    Seriously.. get some professional help. Did your daddy not hug you enough growing up? Maybe mommy didn’t breast feed you or something. Are all people who play this game such social rejects?
    You clearly lack interpersonal communication skills or the ability to set real priorities.

    There’s only one real way to describe this level of addiction to gameplay… Waste of oxygen.

    Anyone who has this level of emotional investment in a stupid video game needs psychiatric help.

    bunch of WoW losers. Seriously. Get a life you fucktard.

    • Are all people who play this game such social rejects?

      You tell me, sweetie pie. I know exactly who you are and I know that you play. I get that you’re sticking up for your friend here, but next time you call someone else a mental case you might want to consider not looking like one yourself with this unrelated and vitriolic verbal diarrhea.

      • I’m a little late to the party on this, but… OOO LOOKIE A TROLL! :D Aww, and she’s even breaking out the “you need psychiatric help” and “get a life” lines! It’s so cute, can I keep her, Alas, can I? I promise to feed her and poke her with sticks and EVERYTHING!

  6. I’m sorry that you feel the way you do about the events that occurred. I think you may be missing part of the story, and there are still those around that know the rest of the story if you are interested in finding it. For the record, no one that I know left because they were given a job. I actually liked the job I was given but no longer cared for the direction the guild was going. I wish you well in whatever you end up doing.

    • Okay, Epox. I mean Nox. Slip of the fingers there!

      You should note that the only reason I might be missing a part of the story is because the people who apparently have problems with things don’t have the stones to say anything about it or try to resolve it. Just a little something I think is worth noting.

  7. Ah, Alas, I wasn’t trying to stress you out in your already stressful moving time. I was pretty constricted for both time and things to say and wanting to give a little “what’s going on” update without having to sit and play for four hours to get material for it. I had just read Jinx’s post and was confused as to how it suddenly went hostile, considering her previous entries which weren’t at all.

    More than anyone else, I feel like you and I have had similar casual raiding experiences. Unlike you, I couldn’t stick through in the leadership role (I am not cut out for it — no matter how much I liked organizing the gbank). But I saw first hand, from the GM seat, what happened when officers left, stealth quit, and poached, and it didn’t work out well. As it turns out, a kindly GM changed the guild tag, I kicked out the skeleton crew and transferred leadership to my bank alt, and there it sits today, the sad carcass that was once my guild.

    But, even while it makes me bite my nails a little bit with the recent (flashback inducing) turn of events, I know you have a couple things I didn’t have (I didn’t have any reliable officers left in the end), so I still think you have the great foundation for a Cataclysm raiding team, and while my leveling time this holiday has been significantly less than I hoped, I still want to be part of it. (Level 54 and going strong).

    Anyway, yes. I’m sorry if that post freaked you out. I’d have said something to you ahead of time if you hadn’t been in a moving van right then. I tend to be pretty straightforward on the blog but can work on reeling that in if required.

    • Oh, please don’t take any of this as being your fault at all! Your post didn’t stress me out so much as the conniving and underhanded ways these people have acted in my absence from the game. Your post was a good way for me to get into mine and I did want to put out there for you to see that I am not losing anything so much as some dead weight. And please don’t ever feel that I would expect you to sensor yourself on your own blog. I prefer straightforwardness, especially after these crooked dealings lately!

      In the meantime, I hope you can get some time to relax and enjoy the game. At this point, I will have to do some light recruiting (and find time to play the game myself!) so there is certainly no rush on things at present.

  8. “I know exactly who you are and I know that you play. I get that you’re sticking up for your friend here, but next time you call someone else a mental case you might want to consider not looking like one yourself with this unrelated and vitriolic verbal diarrhea”

    1. I didn’t say I don’t play.. I do. However, unlike yourself, I have no difficulty separating my personal real life from the virtual environment in which I play.

    2. Yes, of course I would defend a friend.. you know that’s what people do when they have real flesh and blood people that they care about out here in real land. You’re inability to see how your bad behavior in the game backlashes onto people in the real world is the point here.

    3. You are absolutely correct in that my initial post was a knee jerk reaction to someone un-necessarily blasting, abusing, and otherwise slamming someone I care about. And as such, my response to that was less than eloquent but nonetheless, the core of my complaint was still accurate.

    4. It doesn’t really matter what any of us who disagree with you say anyway. You’re the type of person who blames everyone around you for your troubles, and refuses to accept personal responsibility for anything that falls to pieces around you because it would mean taking an honest truthful look at your own faults and being grown up enough to admit that you messed up.

    Finally: No matter what “Jinx” did or did not do in the game.. Connie never did a damn thing to you personally as a real live person out of the game. She didn’t treat you harshly, backbite, backstab, trashtalk or otherwise harm you in any way. In the end.. the only thing that got hurt on you by anyone was your Ego and pride… which was no one’s fault but your own.. but you decided to attack Connie… refused to even speak with her in and ignore and snub her in real life… NOT the game. So you tell me… in the end… which of you is truly the better person here?

    Bottom line.. whether or not you ever do a decent job of playing the game.. so far.. you’re ability to function in every day dealings out of game and the way you treat your fellow human beings = Epic Fail.

    Hopefully you won’t have to lose jobs/friends/family and loved ones in your real life before you figure out how to be a better player in the game of life.

    Apologies for the vitriol of earlier.. it was childish and inappropriate. This post however…is very much the more accurate and to the heart of the matter.

    • You know, you talk a lot of smack for someone who doesn’t know anything about me. I like how you speak with absolute conviction about who I am based on nothing more than a brief introduction and no conversation (and I’m assuming here that Jinx/Nox have also said things about me in their hurt and anger). It’s adorable.

      Equally adorable is the idea that Jinx and the person who plays the character of Jinx are somehow two different entities. I don’t really know what kind of logic you think you have to excuse “Connie” because she was acting as “Jinx.” There’s only one mind behind both of those personas and the argument that what she did in game doesn’t matter because it was done under a different name is frankly ludicrous.

      Did I ignore her when she came to my desk acting like nothing had ever happened? Yes. And I agree it was probably petty but it was also probably better than saying anything and getting into an argument at work.

      Now I am done defending myself to someone who I don’t know personally and who doesn’t know me personally, but who is rabidly in defense of her friend. Again, I get that’s what’s going on here and I am not saying it’s a bad thing, but if Jinx has something further to say, let her speak for herself. The fact is, you only know her side and you’re not willing to listen to another one so there’s no point in you being involved. You say I can’t admit when I am wrong but I don’t see Jinx doing so either.

    • I’d just like to point out something, though Alas definitely covered it already:

      “You’re inability to see how your bad behavior in the game backlashes onto people in the real world is the point here.” and “Finally: No matter what “Jinx” did or did not do in the game.. Connie never did a damn thing to you personally as a real live person out of the game.”

      You realise those statements are completely contradictory, right? If Alas’ bad behaviour in game backlashes onto people in the real world, then so does Connie’s. But if “Connie” and “Jinx” aren’t considered the same and what Jinx does, Connie can’t be held responsible for, then Alas-in-real-life can’t be held responsible for Alas-in-game’s so-called “bad behaviour”. If, however, you’re going to hold ALAS responsible for her in-game behaviour having real-life repercussions, but not do the same for Connie, then this is something we normal people like to call “Double Standards”, and they’re generally considered to be a bad thing, and indicative of immaturity and entitlement. :)

      • (also, Alas, I know I’m feeding trolls in an old post, you don’t have to approve the comment. I just had to type it. XD)

  9. Pingback: My Ideal Guild Officer | Murloc Parliament

  10. Meh, drama whilst making things more interesting also has the troublesome nature of making things completely unstable.

    If those who have left want to form their own guild then let them. If you’re completely honest on the forums then I can’t see you losing too many people and if you do then it’s probably no big deal.

    I’ve seen a lot of these schisms in the time i’ve played wow and there’s nothing more pathetic. I’d use it as a chance to take stock and decide if you still want to lead, and then what you want the guild to be about.

    Chances are if the people leaving are as you say, they will have a tough time attracting people and retaining them. Leading is a bitch, which, chances are they’ll find out soon enough.

    • Yeah, I don’t mind people wanting to go do something else. That’s fine. It’s their money.

      It’s the lack of honesty people have about that which becomes the problem. Not happy with your guild? Talk to someone in charge who can address those concerns. Maybe you don’t like the answer or maybe you do. Either way, your choices are the same: stay or go. I don’t see the point in running around, gossiping, rabble-rousing or spreading discord. Either people will have the same concerns or they won’t. They will make the same decision on their own or they won’t.

      It just seems pathetically needy to have to cause a bunch of drama on your exit. If you need people to agree with you before you can make a decision, I’m not sure you’re in a healthy spot.

      For myself, I have two conversations I need to have. One with my guild at large to tell them how I see things going forward. One with the like-minded to determine which tag to do that under.

  11. Hope the shitstorm dies down soon… these situations are never pleasant.

    I don’t have anything constructive to add, except I’ve been on both sides and the truth is always somewhere in the middle. I’ve wasted a lot of energy hating someone who (in my eyes) destroyed a guild and I was probably hated for creating my own guild and “poaching” people (I also saw it as offering them a safe haven). You can look on the bright side of all this: you have a 10-man guild, so it’s easier to manage or rebuild. Also, if 4 officers left and you still have some left, then you had too many officers and this might turn out to be a good thing in the end. If any more people leave, at least you’ll be left with the ones who share your views. And since it’s so early in the expansion, it won’t destroy your progression or anything.

    Either way, good luck! And please post some good news soon, this GM thing is looking scarier and scarier :P

    • I certainly did have too many officers! That’s what happens when you lose a bunch of members but no officers – you get very clearly top-heavy. I think guilds need to occasionally go through purgings actually. I’d just never had one of officers before and now I have. It’s just another step towards getting what I (and those who still remain, presumably) want out of the guild and the game. So, yes, I think it will ultimately be a good thing.

      I’ll try to get some good news posted soon. I’m finally somewhat stable in my location again to at least get online and perhaps even play. Being a GM is difficult but the good moments are well worth all the aggravation and heartache.

  12. Wait, when did all this happen? And to think here I am one of the lowly schlubs of WWAB and I hardly noticed anything other than a few names that I used to see alot not being around anymore.

    Guess you must be doing something right ;-p

    • Hehe – I guess you’re not one of the people who checks the log to see if anyone came or left recently. I do that pretty much every time I log on. Because I’m neurotic.

      I hope I am doing something right. I’d hate to be as wrong as other people have lately implied.

  13. I have been an Officer and I have been a Peon.

    I must say that since I started my WoW career as an officer, I feel very greedy being a peon. I feel like I take take take and never give back enough. Being an officer is a job. Being an officer has responsibilities and there are people who look to you to do certain things. In my days as just a peon, I feel that I am shortchanging my guild in some way. I feel that I am not doing all I can, and therefore am not doing enough.

    Many officers only see the title as a way to be guaranteed raid spots. That’s just sad. I am glad you lost your bad egg officers. I hope you find people who want the JOB more than the TITLE.

    • Would that I had more officers who felt this way! Well, that’s pretty much all I have now, so I guess that’s awesome.

      Actually, I think it would be cool to have ‘peons’ that felt this way also. As though they could and should contribute to the overall success of the guild. I did have someone recent;y volunteer to take on bank organization for me, so there are clearly some out there who are willing and wanting to help.

      In fact, my new model is going to be to have as few officers as possible and get the guild to volunteer as much as possible. I’d like to see ‘peons’ taking turns at raid leading or at looking over WoL info to help diagnose problems on a specific encounter that is giving us trouble. I think it would promote more buy-in and more of a sense of really being valuable. I guess I shall see if and how it pans out.

  14. I don’t know you and I don’t know your guild. But, I can tell from this post that you are at least a level-headed GM and, it seems, a fair one. I appreciate your honesty in the matter and the fact that you are not afraid to tell exactly what happened. If I played on your server and weren’t re-rolling after an excruciatingly long haul to the original 80 after a year long hiatus, I would want to hang with your guild.

    Not that any of that matters, I’m just saying.

    • Because you don’t know me, this really means a lot. It is quite scary to post something like this because, I think, GM’s are often held to a standard where we have to behave like little politicians. Can’t ever say what we think and many people would try to deny that we’re allowed to feel normal human emotions. It’s bizarre. And I’m tired of it.

      And if you ever want to have a place to keep a lowbie alt for funsies please feel free to check us out. We’re on Azuremyst, Alliance side. And even though I do want to raid, I also want to have people it’s just fun to hang out with on a casual basis.

  15. I don’t think many people appreciate how hard it is to be a GM – trying to do what’s best for your guild as a whole, trying to keep as many people as possible happy, being the one who ultimately has to make decisions and the one who feels it the most when things go badly.

    From my own experience, there will always be difficulties developing raiding in a ‘casual’ guild. Those that joined because it was so casual may feel out of place, sidelined or snubbed because they can’t raid at the leisurely and non-commital pace they enjoy or worry that they will be left out because of a lack of skill/time. Those more interested in success and progression may feel held back, stunted and frustrated at the slow pace or lack of interest of other guild members. It’s such a fine balance between instigating so many raiding rules and regulations that ultimately you lose what made you a guild in the first place, and bumbling along not really achieving anything at all.

    I hope you find that balance – drama queen officers reluctant to take on a role or step up their game a little certainly wouldn’t have helped you in the long run. Or short run…

    People don’t like change, unfortunately some people also don’t have the balls or brain to step up and talk to you about concerns or worries – which causes more problems than attempting change in the long run!

    From one GM to another, I wish you luck.

    • You speak nothing but the truth and it’s a comfort to know that other people see these same issues and the difficulties in trying to get a workable solution in place. The dichotomy between the more casual raiders and those more interested in progression has indeed been the main source of most of WWAB’s drama over the years. This is why starting over looks so attractive – no baggage, just a clear statement of who we are and what we want.

      Thanks so much for the well-wishes. I hope to be posting something about the final outcome of these events soon.

  16. Ohhhh Alas I feel your pain. Right now, I want to raid with 9 other people who have the same level of desire to perform well at a hobby that I do.

    I don’t want to take people who are running around with 1) their Gilneas tabard in 5 mans, when their reps aren’t maxed 2) running around on alts for DAYS when their main needs gear, but they are too lazy to be bothered to queue, ALL evening…

    Then there’s the kicker. There’s the guy who says “I’m just a raider. I show up, and I raid. I don’t do anything else.”

    Well, ok, then, if you won’t make efforts to get the heroic gear, then I don’t have to make an effort to make a spot for you in my raid. So be it.

    We suffer from too many players, only 10 spots. I HAVE A JOB, BUT I ALSO LOVE MY FRIENDS IN MY GUILD. This means that I not only show up for raids, but I also do play in my free time and DO things with other people. It doesn’t mean I just show up, collect my free loot, and say “thanks, FU now”. Just because I have a job doesn’t mean I’m a total slacker toward my guild. Their use of the “I have a life” excuse is moot.

    If the only thing you “think” you have time for is to log on, get loot, and then log right off for 6 days until the next raid, then having the respect of the other people in your guild is not going to happen and nobody is going to give it to you. I. hate. these. kinds. of. people. Raiding is NOT for them.

    Overall, I think you are VERY much in the right in everything that happened. If people want to skip raids because their real life is busy, then maybe raiding just isn’t for them. It’s not a choice, it’s a FACT. If I hear frequent crying babies in the background on vent, or screaming children, I have to wonder why they aren’t taking care of things.

    Real life happens. Go take care of it. You are a casual. You cannot neglect your real life AND be a full time raider. Don’t expect to show up once a month and get loot.

    Unfortunately this is why I think we will be stepping on some toes when we make our raider group, because on Wed. nights, I want to relax. Thursday I want to raid. Friday I relax and then go to work. When I relax, I farm things for the guild.

    I’m sorry you had to deal with people who think they have “real lives” and that this means they can skip raids and still have the same raid spot and loot privelages as everyone who shows up regularly.

    To rectify this solution, we made a raider team and a casual team. We have alts to help the casual team.

    This got rantier than I wanted it to >.< But I feel where you are coming from.

  17. Pingback: Kiss My Alas » Blog Archive » I am always me

  18. I know I’m days behind on commenting (my ISP has been down for a week and is STILL down!! grrr) and most things have been said already. But I still wanted to post to show my support.

    As we’ve said before there are some similarities with the problems we’ve had in our respective guilds, and I feel for you that this is happening. Not for losing the people, because it sounds like at least some of them were dead weight that you were better off losing – but it’s still always hurtful when things happen in that way.

    I always believe that the best thing you can do when you have a problem with a new policy or something else in the guild is to have an open conversation with the fellow officers/GM. There is really no point in back-stabbing (and really just reflects badly on the person doing it), or stealth quitting.

    People can have different opinions, and they can leave and start their own guild (or join another) – but after having spent time playing with people I personally think it’s only fair to expect a certain level of openness and honesty about what you’re doing and why.

    If I was to leave my guild (which I won’t since I’m loyal to a fault – even when I know sometimes it would be better for me if I did) I would explain exactly why – and in no way would I blame it all on the guild/GM. Everyone’s different.. we want and expect different things. There’s no reason to run around and trash talk the GM or policies – just be honest.

    I’m sorry if this doesn’t make sense. I may have lost my train of thought somewhere along the way.

    In any case – I’m sure when the dust settles you can get everything back on track – and quite possibly better.

    In the meanwhile, I hope you’re move is going well and Happy New Year :)