I am always me

With the recent bout of drama that has gone on in my neck of the woods, I have been confronted a few times now with an argument that I find rather illogical. This is not the first time I have encountered this argument and so I am prompted to write about it. (And I am not trying to continue the drama fest in using these examples. They are just the only recent/concrete ones I have at the moment.)

In the comments of my former post, you can find someone telling me that what her friend did in game doesn’t matter because it wasn’t done by her in real life to me in real life. In another recent post (not mine), there is the assertion that I am likable as a person. There is a distinction drawn there that who I am in real life is somehow different than “Alas the GM” or “Alas the wretched blogger.”

I gotta call lolwut on this way of thinking.

There Are Distinctions

Of course, there are some distinctions to be made between the game and real life. Obviously, WoW is a fantasy world and I cannot actually turn people into sheep and set them on fire (no matter how much I would sometimes like to do so). But “It’s just a game” is a phrase that people like to throw around whenever they want to discount or discredit an opinion or action that they don’t like.

Of course it’s a game. But it’s a game being played by real people with real feelings and real emotions. There are real friendships that can and have been forged. There are real disagreements. Just because it takes place in and around a game doesn’t mean that none of these things matter. They might be prioritized under real life friendships, disagreements, feelings, emotions, whatever. But they are not worthless or imaginary and the tactic of telling someone they are being stupid or childish or ridiculous or that they have no grasp of what is really important is nothing more than bullying.

What happens in Azeroth…

Along with using “it’s just a game” to devalue other people’s feelings, the phrase will also be tossed out as an excuse for bad behavior. You were a jerk in a game? Doesn’t matter. The game isn’t real so your behavior is somehow equally a fantasy, right? Wrong.

No matter where you are, you are guided by your own moral compass, whatever that might be. Being a dick on the internet is just the same as being a dick in real life. It’s only that we don’t always see the immediate consequences of our actions online because we usually don’t see the people we are influencing by our actions, for good or ill. Hiding behind a made-up name on the internet does not excuse anyone from taking responsibility for whatever they do.

Alas! you might say. This is a hypocritical stance coming from someone who just wrote the post you did!

Well, no. I admit I said some pretty harsh things in my previous post. I take responsibility for it and I acknowledge that I wrote it knowing full well that my opinions would be hurtful. But it was an honest post and it highlighted quite a bit of my own flaws. It wasn’t charitable or kind and I own that. I am a human being and I have uncharitable and unkind thoughts. It’s not an excuse, just a statement of fact.

But I refuse to play the martyr by pretending that I was perfect through all of this, because I haven’t been. I also refuse to buy into the idea that I am not directly responsible for what I wrote because I did so as “Alas the wretched blogger.”

Right, wrong or indifferent – it’s all me. And if expressing an honest opinion or feeling is vile, well, don’t get near me I guess. I might contaminate you. On the plus side, at least you know you’re getting me at face value. I think that is far better than being the sort of person who pretends to be friendly to your face only to stab you as soon as your back is turned.

Stab me in the back and be prepared for my reaction, which is to want to punch you in the face. It’s just how I roll.

Alas is Alas is Alas

The idea that I am a different person depending on where I am is very illogical. It’s true that I might be more reserved in some company or more outspoken in others, but who I am doesn’t vary as I move between “Alas the blogger” and “Alas the GM” and “[my real name here], the person.”

Someone stating that they like me the person is, to me, the same as stating that they like me as a blogger or a gamer. I don’t log into the game and suddenly become someone else. I am still me. Other people are still themselves. Whatever it is that we as people decide to do in a game is a decision that can be directly attributed to the person. The characters we play have no free will and no independent personalities. We are them. They are us.

Anyone who thinks differently is someone who truly cannot take personal responsibility. Or who is just delusional.

Posted in Teh Dramas, Thoughts and Ideas | Tagged , , , , , , | 12 Comments

Tired of turning the other cheek

Rhii wrote recently that she was looking at joining a raiding guild that has lately lost four officers and she is understandably concerned that perhaps joining that particular guild isn’t the right move. I don’t blame her… even though that guild is my own.

At the same time, there is information that has been put forth in bits and pieces that, once it makes a cohesive whole, might perhaps explain why four officers have been lost and why, as GM, I am not in the least concerned that this will have very much of an impact on my guild. We are far from folding, or at least, I am far from giving up on the notion of leading a successful 10 man raiding guild, although I do admit it might be under a different tag.

Before I get into details, I have been considering that all of these officers who left waited until after a significant event occurred. In the interests of being open and honest about my dealings with these poor and beleaguered souls, I am going to tell you what this event was. It’s pretty heinous so hold tight:

I gave them all specific jobs with measurable goals.

I know. I KNOW. It’s a wonder I can sleep at night. Asking officers to do something other than sit around pretending to be important? The. Horror.

Okay, now it’s really time to hold tight because this is a long one and I’m not interested in pulling any punches. Names will be named. Fingers will be pointed. Drama has occurred and may ensue again.

Recent History

The first officer I lost, I lost because I adhered to the rules that were set in place. Holly essentially rage quit, leaving with a message of (and I quote) “fuck you very much” because I didn’t make special allowances for her husband. She was the one asking for them and he never gave any indication that he even wanted them, but talk about an attempt at abusing one’s position.

The second officer I lost, I never believed had true loyalty to anyone or anything other than himself. He left over authenticators, or at least that’s the reason I was given.

The latest officers I’ve lost are a married couple. Of everyone that left, this was perhaps the one I didn’t see coming. At brought Nox into the guild and the game years ago and Nox eventually brought in Jinx.

At and I – and this guild – have been there pretty much every step of the way with both of them. With Nox, we became raiders together, learning how to work as a raiding team. With Jinx, well, she is a Wrath baby and still to this day has no idea what raiding used to be like. Nor yet heroics that are actually difficult. It took a few years, but we finally had her pulling her own weight in a raid and not sucking up the bottom of the DPS charts although she was still the chief culprit of standing in the bad. Only as we worked on Arthas did she actually come into her own.

Then Holly quit in a fit of rage and instead of being able to shrug it off and move on, Jinx has been wallowing in how hard it is when friends leave.* We talked about it and I said at one point or another that after several months of being used as a target by Holly and three years of putting up with some downright shitty tanking (with sides of piss-poor heals and huntardy dps from her SO) I wasn’t all that sad to see her go. Quite the opposite, I was relieved. They couldn’t hold us back any more even as they deluded themselves that they were carrying us through content.

Of course, if you’re a GM you don’t have the right to say what you really think without dealing with the repercussions. In this case, the repercussions are that Jinx, all the while claiming to be an officer and acting in the best interests of the guild, waited until I would be out of the game for some time and then went on her rounds, talking shit to a list of undisclosed persons. She outright told me this herself, standing right in front of me at my desk.

We had words. Her side of which was essentially: “You’re a horrible person because you had this core designation in place and it’s ruined the guild and everyone else thinks so. PS, we all hate Zel.”

My side of the conversation went something like: “I just want to raid seriously and I have done everything I can to make sure that happens in a casual guild. PS, you don’t beat end game content by sitting around talking about sunshine and roses. You do it by being focused and working at it.”

I wish I had added, “Also, how dare you of all people complain about the core when firstly, you were only in it because Nox refused to play without you and secondly, it was that and not your ‘skill’ that kept you in our raids all the way to the end?”

*I admit I used to be devastated when people gquit and this was well before we ever tried our hand at raiding. I have since realized that I barely remember who most of the people who left were and none of them were worth the devastation I felt at the time. Playing this game and dealing with a community of people who are largely out for themselves has made me grow more immune to these events. I expect people to act in their own best interests and I am not going to waste a lot of pointless emotion on anyone who has stepped outside of my sphere.

The core is the debbil!

Now, the core deserves its own bit of explanation. In late spring, a whole lot of people were talking about coming back to the game and wanting to raid. Meanwhile, several people had been around all along and had been working on content. The idea of having to stop, go back, gear up and juggle several more people into a raiding rotation was not one I was particularly down for. We had only recently managed to recover a steady forward motion and ICC awaited.

If these people did come back and were willing to put in some effort towards getting themselves ready, I would have loved to have them. But I knew their behavior from before and if we didn’t have a clear rule in place about raid spots, they would assume that because they were there and wanted to go they would automatically be given spots. They weren’t shy about pitching fits if they didn’t get their way, so clearly something was needed.

So the core group designation was formed, with the full agreement of all the officers. Basically it was the people who had never wandered off for months at a time would have priority for spots over people just coming back. There were only six or seven “core” people so there was space for others to have their turns.

A raider or two ended up wandering off to a different guild and it was at this time that Zel and Gnoble decided to come and check us out. Being a healer and us being short on heals, Zel never had to sit out. Gnoble did his share of sitting on the sidelines and there were no complaints from them. They knew what they were getting into. But as time went on, Zel and Gnoble, in signing up and then showing up without fail, became dependable and I was soon confirming both of them for every raid. Other raiders weren’t signing up often, but I made every attempt to bring them in where and when I could.

Towards the end of the expansion, I was having more and more difficulty in balancing raid teams within the confines of the core group. There had been enough complaints about the core group from most quarters that I assumed no one would object to it going away. It had done what I needed it to do, including keeping summer raiding going fairly strong since people were motivated to come so they could keep their core spots. I had already mentioned getting rid of the core with the new xpac coming and no objections were raised at that time.

In the last few weeks of Wrath, I announced that I was going to abolish the core to give a little more flexibility to my own ability to create balanced raid teams. As soon as I did that, the officers mostly freaked out because “OMG MY SPOT YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE ME NOT HAVE MY SPOT AND WE NEEEED THE COOOOORE OR I WON’T BE ABLE TO GOOOOO BECAUSE YOU AREN’T GOING TO BRING NOOOOBS.”

I thought that was particularly telling, that perhaps the loudest of these shouters knew they weren’t raiding to their full potential and knew that the getting rid of their guaranteed spot might mean that they would have to stop being so lazy.

Nevertheless, I abolished the core designation and we killed the Lich King a whole two times and Cataclysm arrived, both in game and in my real life. Announcements about not having the core in place moving forward were made and I thought that things would sail smoothly enough that I could deal with the details of packing and moving. Silly me.

Pro Tip to Jinx since I know you will read this: Don’t tell someone you “have your officer hat on” and then share that you are going around stirring up shit over something that doesn’t even fucking exist any more. It makes you look really stupid.

Fallout (wherein I embrace sarcasm)

So far, there has not been much fallout, though I suspect a few more people might leave (especially if and when they read this post and realize that they believe Holly’s and Jinx’s version of events more than mine). Jinx is attempting to poach while saying “But I am not poaching! I am just providing a haven for the refuges!”

Because, you know, with the way I have tolerated and tried to work around all this selfish and lazy behavior, I am clearly a tyrant bent on making those people who are, uh, trapped in my guild suffer. Someone get the WoW version of the UN after me! Free the refugees from my borders! They can’t leave on their own if they are unhappy with something, nor can they bring their concerns to leadership. It’s unpossible, I tell you.

What now?

I learn a little bit more every day about how far my former officers have undermined things in the guild. I am torn right now between wanting to tear everything down and start over (now that I have only some more sensible thinking types remaining in their leadership positions) or just torching it all, knowing that those who understand what I am after in game and who have similar goals will more than likely follow me.

Posted in Leadership, Teh Dramas | Tagged , , , , , , , , | 38 Comments

On farewells

I’m writing this on the slow and hated laptop as I sit on a camp chair in what is largely an empty house. The movers came yesterday and I watched as they wrapped up all my furniture and carted out all my boxes. It felt surreal. It still does.

There are only a few more days to get through – days spent with my family for the holidays, one more day of work, a few days of driving right after everything between here and there has been slammed with winter storms.

To say I am stressed would be an understatement. Even in these few and fleeting quiet moments, my mind is full of what I must do for real life to get through the next several days and this is good because it takes my mind off what I’ll have to do when I get back to WoW.

I really didn’t need for a game to become another source of stress, but it has.

It seems strangely fitting to be now surrounded by empty, echoing rooms and to be looking ahead to a difficult journey. It seems right that it should be difficult to let go of a place that, no matter how much I dislike it, has become familiar and even comfortable. And it makes sense that the place to which I am going will be familiar but so different from what I used to know. It helps that there will still be familiar faces, if not as many.

And so it goes. The  whole world changes even as it remains exactly the same as always.

Posted in Real Life | Tagged , , , | 16 Comments

Homework for raiders?

Dear prettyfull readers,

I keep starting posts and then never finishing them because I am getting waylaid by details about moving and then it’s time to bitch about my boss being a jackhole and then it’s time to look at more houses online (and wonder whether there are dead hookers in the floorboards because why did that house drop 50% in price anyway?) and the next thing you know I have some randomly connected paragraphs that appear to have been composed by a deranged squirrel on speed who is possibly also drunk.

Much like that paragraph in fact.

Anyhow, Zel thinks I should make you lovely readers do the heavy lifting here, since I’ve clearly had enough heavy lifting IRL.

This idea totally works for me, so I put it you, my lovely and smart and awesome friends, what expectations would you place on your raiders if you were in my shoes? I’m not going to be able to be in game to push and prod and plan people into shape, but I do have a bit of time to lay out some things I would like to see accomplished by the time I am able to get back into game.

If you were about to take a few weeks off to move cross-country, what would you ask people to do in your absence? What prompts would you give to get people moving in the right direction? And how many exclamation points should I put after the sentence “Please don’t bother with your alts until your main has accomplished these things”?

In my scattered and distraught way, I love you all.

-Alas

Posted in Acts of Lameness, Leadership, Open Letters, Raiding, Real Life | Tagged , , , , , | 6 Comments

Mage CC – not just sheep anymore

Despite how many hours we’ve had to divert to packing, At and I have managed to play for a bit of time most nights and have made our way through Hyjal, Deepholm and Uldum. We’ve also run a few dungeons along the way: BRC, The Stonecore and Vortex Pinnacle. We’re most of the way through 84 and could easily have hit 85 last night but thought that since we won’t be getting to really play any time soon we might as well take our time and get a little more rested XP saved up before we knock the rest of it out.

That and we were sleepy. Packing up one’s books is a chore.

So far, The Stonecore has been the most intensive in terms of needing to crowd control. Both times I have gone there, the dps has been myself, ATT and one of our warlocks. We cleared absolutely everything in there the first time through and I noticed that I have managed to get rather rusty when it comes to keeping my target sheeped. Fortunately, my first run was enough to remind me of what I needed to do and subsequent runs went more smoothly as far as my CC was concerned.

So much for sheeping – it’s hardly a new mechanic and nothing has changed in how to properly manage a CC target. But mages did get a new toy which, while it has a limited use, can and should be used to take the edge off of either an initial pull or an accidental pull gone wrong.

I speak, of course, of our Ring o’ Frosty Flakes. I admit I was not the one to leap to the conclusion of how useful it could be on a large pull – that was ATT – but he hasn’t got a draft on this so I get to be the one to talk about it like I am smart.

This is not the ring of frost you're looking for.

What we were able to do was to either take turns pulling packs of trash using Ring of Frost – with the other mage ready to sheep the target that would be too far outside of the range of the frost ring or the one that would be frozen but who would stay at a range when they got free.

Ten seconds isn’t a lot of time, but it did help with keeping more of the trash at a distance and allowed the tank to pull his targets away from the ones that needed to be sheeped. (Our first non-ring of frost pulls would have frequent CC breaks due to Hammer of the Righteous, Holy Wrath and the occasional Consecration.)

So that is the best use I have seen so far from this new spell. How have other mages been using it?

Posted in Mage Related | Tagged , , , , , | 3 Comments

Things about being an officer that should be wildly apparent (but seem not to be)

1. Being an officer is a job, not a perk. I don’t know how many times I’ve had to roll my eyes about this one. It’s rather funny how some people react to the idea. Y-you mean, you expect me to work? I thought I was just here to feel important!

2. Officers should be more open to performance criticisms, especially as it pertains to their level of skill in game. I didn’t hear about this at the time, but our resident number cruncher told me that one of the officers who recently left refused to hear his advice on how to improve their play style because he couldn’t talk to them like that. Officers do not take advice from peons. I beg your lolwut.

3. Officers lead by example. It’s not acceptable to tell everyone else in the guild that you expect them to hold to a certain standard and then clearly and obviously make yourself the exemption from that rule. If you don’t want to be held to a standard, then stop trying to lead anyone else. That seriously garners no fucking respect.

4. Be a grown up. Seriously. No one wants to follow a child. Tantrums and whining aren’t attractive or inspiring.

5. Work to earn respect. There’s a lot of people out there who aren’t dumb enough to be impressed by a title, no matter whether it’s in a game or out of it. Don’t think an arbitrary title is going to be enough for someone else to want to listen to what you have to say. Make an effort to listen more than you talk – and when you do speak, make an effort to apply some logic to your words instead of just speaking from your gut. I mean, yuck.

This post brought to you by the number 1, as represented by the middle digit, the letters F and U, with promotional consideration from Bee Pit Enterprises QQ-grade Mulch.

Posted in Leadership, rant | Tagged , , , , | 14 Comments

Mulch my boss, mulch this job!

Hello all -

A quick note here just to say hey and give a quick wave. It doesn’t seem to make much sense to write about WoW since I have scarcely been in it since the 7th. Alas and At both got as far as level 81 last night, questing through Hyjal. I’ve not seen much, not done much and possibly will be one of the last people in the guild to hit the new level cap.

I will say I’ve enjoyed what I have seen thus far and it feels good to be gaining xp on the main again. Not to mention being engaged in about three rep grinds, all of which are fun for a change after the past few months of pirate-killing and Ogri’la daily-doing.

Real life is something of a bitch and I want to take a moment to bitch about it because I imagine someone out there might pat me on the head and say “There, there,” in a comforting sort of way. You see, I was supposed to be off work yesterday, today and tomorrow. I had it planned months in advance for obvious reasons.

Then work got in the way and my boss commanded that all hands be on deck for some pre-implementation weeklong workshop. Okay, fine, I cancel my plans. I can be a team player. Things went really wrong as far as the vendor being able to get to us in a timely fashion so my boss is reacting poorly, as though it’s the vendor’s fault that weather is generally uncooperative. On the heels of this, he finds out through the grapevine that At has been offered a job and accepted it.

So now he’s pissed at me. Because… because… he’ll have to interview people to fill my position and it’s inconvenient? I really don’t know what the deal is.

All I know is that suddenly this pre-implementation thing is now a place where I am persona non grata. But I still have to be at work. Because someone has to warm this chair up. And it would be unreasonable to allow me to have my vacation plans back because my boss just wouldn’t be able to work up to the same levels of pettiness that he is currently achieving.

I have a rawr and a sad and a burning desire to end my official letter of resignation with: “And you can take this job and MULCH it!”

Posted in rant, Real Life | Tagged , , , , , | 18 Comments

Mind dump (because I can)

Welcome to another real life post, courtesy of my inability to contain myself.

Big, big things have been underway recently. People on Twitter may collectively yawn and bugger off if they like, since I have made disjointed updates there. Well, so can people not on Twitter, but some of this should at least be new.

The first thing is that At finally received a job offer in Utah. We weren’t certain whether or not he ought to accept it since the pay was quite a bit lower than what we were hoping for. After as much thought and discussion as we could possible fit into the small window of time we had for that process, we decided he should accept and we would just plan on him living out there with my family until I could sell the house here and move to join him.

We also reduced our asking price on the house and soon after got a call from our realtor’s office telling us that they had two showings they would like to have on Saturday. We cleaned up and cleared out for a few hours, and I ate alligator meat. (This has no bearing on the story other than to say that I tried it and thought it was rather like greasy chicken.) Yesterday morning, we got a call with an offer.

It was low so we counter-offered and waited some more. Early afternoon rolled around and we got another call. Our counter-offer was accepted and could we come down to the office to sign some preliminary paperwork?

Now, I’ve been wanting to get out of Missouri ever since I landed here several years ago. There’s really nothing I like about the area in which I live and in all my time here I’ve only made one local friend who has stayed local. The people At associated with out here never accepted me as anything other than the Whore of Babylon (because I wear pants and drink wine and don’t keep my head covered at all times) – which is fine since I have never accepted them as anything other than misogynistic nutbags.

My home has always been Utah and I have wanted nothing more than to get back there.

So it makes perfect sense that my reaction to selling the house was to cry, right? And I’m not talking tears of joy, since the whole thing is so surreal that I still haven’t accepted it as being true. I have yet to experience happiness or excitement. Sheer terror, now, that’s something I have conjured.

I have a bit of the headless chicken syndrome now, since you know, we have less than a month to pack and move and plan for all the thousands of little details that go along with that. Like THE FOOD IN THE FREEZER WHAT WILL WE DO WITH ALL THE FOOD IN THE FREEZER?

I’m totally disgruntled that there is no “guild vault” sort of option in real life. I mean, that bank is perhaps the most magical thing in all of WoW. You might be in Shattrath on ANOTHER PLANET and you can still stick in some raw meat, take a week off from doing anything, come back in some backwater giant tree with a city in its branches and yank that raw fish right out, no problems.

Try to do that in real life and even if you could still get that fish out from a totally different location it would have caused everything else you’ve ever owned and put in the bank to smell like rotten fish. I call shenanigans.

Anyhow, all of this is to say something like, “I think I’m moving 1000 miles cross-country and will need to find both a job and a place to live upon arrival. Since all my free time away from work will be spent packing, I’ll be that late-to-the-party idiot blogger two months from now saying crap like, ‘Hey guys, this xpac is pretty neat, eh?’”

I’m okay with it. I just wanted to get the news out of the way so that I can focus whatever spare bits of time I have in the coming months to talk about the game or my guild or anything other than boxes and ow! my back huuuurts and wah! winter moving is made of fail.

But just as I am about to escape the snowy climes of Northrend, I’ll be heading to the snowy climes of the Wasatch Mountains. I think I deserve a chance to snivel about the timing.

wtb time on a sunny beach, pst.

Posted in Real Life | Tagged , , , | 16 Comments

In case further proof was needed

More evidence that I am super!lame:

I… I’m sick. And I was cleaning all day! Yeah. No telling what sort of fumes I might have inhaled.

If you don’t get the reference, look here.

ALSO, Zel demanded I include a link to the Bee Pit. Although if you don’t what that is by now, there’s just no hope for you.

Posted in Acts of Lameness, Screenshots | Tagged , , , , | 5 Comments

A plague on me!

/cough

/sniffle

At shared his plague from last week with me and real life has generally been taking over in other ways. So it’s great for me that I have another pile of link love to share. Let’s get to it!

More times when I told people what to write (and then they actually did it):

From Windsoar of Jaded alt, we have A Failed Attempt at Saying Happy Blogaversary! Now, to be clear, I don’t think it was a failure. On the contrary, I think Windsoar did a great job of taking a strange prompt and making the most of it! My continued apologies for tossing that one your way!

Next, from Apple of Azeroth Apple, we have Raiding, from a lore perspective, which is a look at how Apple’s character feels upon facing down raid bosses. I certainly never thought myself to try to see raiding from Alas’ eyes, but Apple clearly put some thought into it.

Lastly, from Ano of Mysterious Buttons, there is For Alas: Why, how and who. I’m honored to have such a lovely and poignant post dedicated to my name when it’s even more for the people that Ano gets to play with. I found myself wishing I could be a part of that guild, even if on a part time and temporary basis, because the love that exists there is nearly tangible. Mushy, I was it.

I think I still have or two prompts that were sent into the void. I’ll still be looking for those posts and sharing them if I see them!

Other Stuff

In terms of more random posts that I have liked lately, head over to Manalicious where Vid has been posting just a whole slew of good stuff, including I Am A Damage Dealer (which was a response to Tam’s also-excellent musings on the divine right of tanks ), Fostering A Sense of Teamwork For Tens and sharing recipes that are guaranteed to add some poundage to my waistline this holiday season if I can’t keep myself from breaking down and making them…

Ahem. Meanwhile, Cynwise has shared with everyone his Case Against Heirlooms, which I found very interesting. While I have been plague-stricken, I’ve been rolling a few alts on various servers just to see and explore the changes. Even without heirlooms, leveling is going wicked fast and I think between that and Cynwise’s post, I am convinced that the Worgen rogue I’ve been planning for the last year will likely be going without heirlooms at least part of the time.

Lastly, Christmas is coming and if you needed some awesome ideas for Perfect (and cheap) presents for that WoW-player in your life, check out Disciplinary Action’s fantastically clever designs and ideas. I still must obtain the Runic Healing Potion as a shirt.

Oh, and while I am on the topic of Disciplinary Action, you must go check out the comic of I, Gerald. It is brilliant and my only regret is that it will be the only I, Gerald comic because kobalds are generally difficult to work with. But maybe if enough people beg or sign a petition…

And that’s it

I just heard that our house is being shown twice tomorrow so I am going to take advantage of being home with the plague to do some cleaning. And disinfecting. Ew.

Posted in Just Links | Tagged , , | 3 Comments